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« Rubbing it in a little more | Main | CPUE, PSD's, and West Boggs Lake »

January 27, 2011

Comments

Darren

I totally agree! There are too many cliche-isms in fishing (and life) that are cute or coy, but not universally true.

Another one I've found frustrating, because it just hasn't worked for me, is "big fish, big bait". As you admitted, "catching fish is easy; finding them is the hard part" may be true in some cases, but not all, same with "big fish, big bait".

I've scored more big bass on 4" worms with finesse presentations than any crankbait, spinnerbait, swimbait, I've used-ever. That's my experience, maybe not yours. But when Bill Dance trumpets that "ism" on TV, it smacks more of commercialism than really catching fish.

Similar surveys by biologists have been done at my local reservoirs suggesting that there aren't enough days in the year - or fishermen - to catch all the bass they've found present.

End rant.

Regarding your note, I'm still going to buy a fish finder for my canoe. For me it is more about finding and locating structure and such. I want to know locales where bass typically hang out - off shore.

Great article. Thanks.

aaronb


This is great stuff Brian. Fascinating analysis of the data and I'm still trying to absorb all of it. You might be trying to stir up a little debate, so I'll bite.

My initial thoughts centered around your example of Monroe. Estimated at 10k acres, that puts a concentration of roughly 2 catchable fish per acre. This assumes a rather unnatural 'equal' distribution of fish across the lake. So, if we account for schooling and seasonal patterns, we could safely assume that not every acre will hold fish. The numbers just aren't there to support it. Since we are also talking about surface area, you have to consider that Monroe has an average depth of say 25 feet. This greatly expands the volume of water we are dealing with in any given acre. Beating the bank for a mile or two, or even 20, and expecting to pass in front of hundreds of fish just doesn't seem to add up. If you fish 40 feet out from shore, that makes an acre about 1000 feet long. Roughly 6 acres per mile in this case. Can we expect hundreds of fish to be there, or somewhere around 12? 12 fish in a mile of shoreline is a very small target to consider. Again, this assumes equal distribution so you might be fishing truly dead water or you might be on a good school. I would agree that catching is harder than finding since we can presumably eliminate water before we even launch. I'm just taking a different approach here and looking at total surface area, which makes the distribution/concentration of fish seem a little less optimistic for this lake at least.

I've got a lot of new water on the club schedule this year (and I'm up against some good sticks who know these lakes well), so I'm very interested in the finding part but do agree that catching is often the hardest. Countless days of watching fish on a finder with only a bite or two solidifies that, but I am confident that I at least had a good population located.

Of course, we could further this research by taking a couple of lakes I haven't been on, but ones that you have a gps full of waypoints. We can fish blind for a bit and do a survey of sorts per acre or mile, and then we can hop some of your holes to see what works best. I promise I won't make note of where we have the most success :) I've got the boat, lunch, and some Dr. Peppers. Just let me know when you want to go.

Big Indiana Bass

Good comments Darren. If you haven't already seen it, check out the BIB Articles section for "Big Baits. Big Bass. Big Myth?" It fits right in line with your points above.

Aaron - Love the math and discussion. You make very good points, but I think it can be simplified even further, at least in my mind and relative to the point I'm trying to make. Keep in mind that almost all electrofishing is done within 30' of the bank, and is effective to not much more than 5'-6' in depth. Therefore, when IDNR is shocking (say) 300 bass in 2 hours (rate = 150/hr) on a given lake, while they won't be completely evenly distributed along a shoreline, the bottom line is 1.) those are actual numbers/rates, and 2.) the target area is really defined.

In other words, if you were moving ahead of them in a boat, staying 50'-70' from shore and throwing to the bank and fishing back to the boat, you would actually be fishing past and through 300 bass. Moving at their same slow speed, and regardless of whether you cover 500 feet or 1/2 a mile in that same 2 hr time period, you've still presented your bait to 300 bass. You know that because that is exactly how many bass they shocked up right behind you in that same time frame. You don't have to "find" the bass because the limits of, and standard protocols used in electrofishing have already defined their (the basses) location for you.

I can't speak to how many more are behind you out in open water, or deeper than electrofishing can efficiently survey. I assume that the modeling program they use to calculate total populations in a lake somehow accounts for this. I know they are tagging fish and going back through areas at a later time point to see what percentage of tagged fish show up a second time. Those factors are all part of the equation. Still, it is to some degree irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make. There are a whole lot of bass here in Indiana that are shallow water/shoreline-cover oriented.

As I mentioned at the start of the article, when speaking of just Indiana waters, I think this probably holds true around here for about 3 seasons of the year; spring, summer and fall. Winter probably changes things quite a bit, as you mention, due to some seasonal location changes. Still, I'm betting that on any given day, on most any given Indiana lake, anglers probably don't want to know how many bass a DNR boat would shock up going behind them down any given bank :)

And yes, we'll have to try and hook up this year out on the lake. I'm always game for a local fishing trip if we can get schedules to jive. Hopefully we'll catch enough to make a nice site post :)

RS

I could be wrong, but anecdotal evidence tells me it is possible many of these cliches hold more water outside Indiana. Over the last couple years I have experienced ah ha moments where "so that's what they mean when they say..." has come to mind. I don't know what or why but Indiana sure seems to fish a lot different than north, south, east or west. Fishing pressure is the first to come to mind as far as a reason... ?

What I do know is that I am looking forward to 4 to 6 week-long non-Indiana experiences this year.

Big Indiana Bass

Agree 100% Rod. Indiana is just a lot different, not too dissimilar to Ohio. Lots of pressure, lots of stained, shallow water, and no big reservoirs (Monroe/Patoka are just oversize creek arms on Kentucky/Barkley/Guntersville/Toledo Bend/etc. size lakes). My strongest word of advice to Jacob about becoming a professional bass fisherman is to get out of Indiana as fast as he can :)

aaronb

Brian - have you ever participated in one of these surveys, or know if it is possible to volunteer to help with one?

I think this pretty much sums it up no matter how you look at the numbers - "Still, I'm betting that on any given day, on most any given Indiana lake, anglers probably don't want to know how many bass a DNR boat would shock up going behind them down any given bank"

The numbers for Monroe estimate the entire lake, not just the actual survey numbers, so I think some of the math is still compelling, but the CPUE for most of these lakes is just scary because, as you mention, they are real numbers and the area is very defined.


Big Indiana Bass

I've assisted with electrofishing demos before on 'field days' where they present to local land owners at a workshop. I have also both watched and helped out with stream surveys using tote barge electrofishers. Haven't actually done a public lake survey with IDNR, as they generally won't let you directly assist in most cases due to liability concerns. That said, they don't mind you following along in your own boat and observing the process from a close distance. It's pretty fascinating.

Josh McDermott

This is great, goes back to when Chitwood and I fished a section of the river where the greatest fisherman of all time was following us up a 500 yard stretch of bank.

His name was Bob, and he was doing DNR surveys in a shocking boat.

Needless to say Bob kicked 100 percent of our asses that day although we did have him beat on big fish on that stretch. I dont remember the exact numbers as it has been at least 6 or 7 years since this ass kicking but what I do remember is that it was embarassing!

Goes back to what I have always said about Indiana bass fishing and fishermen. Its so easy to say they arent biting or they arent there rather than saying I just plain sucked, rationalization is a bassers best friend at times!

So if you are ever fishing with me and its tough you will hear me say "do you realize how many bass have seen our baits today?" Ive always used the number 500 and it looks as though I wasnt too far off, just might need to add another zero to that number from here on out.

Thanks Brian, great information here.

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